Copyright © 2007–2018 Tim Ferriss. All Rights Reserved.
and so on, that, “The hero and the coward feel the same thing. It’s
how the hero responds that makes him different.” You can’t be
courageous unless you are exposing yourself to a perceived risk,
which, by definition, makes you vulnerable, even if you’re
thinking about it in a very literal, kind of physical sense.
So I’d love to segue to shame because I was reading one of your
alumni publications. You can correct this, certainly, if it’s not
accurate. But a quote of yours came up that I thought was
insightful and worth exploring a bit.
And it said, “Shame hates to have words wrapped around it. If we
talk about it, it loses its grip on us.” And I was hoping maybe you
could elaborate on that and help us to better understand shame.
Brené Brown: Yeah. I think that quote is so powerful because it’s so true. When I
talk about shame, I often like to personify it and say, “Shame is a
very formidable foe.: Shame is this intensely painful belief or
experience that something is wrong with us; that we are flawed and
that we are unworthy of love and belonging.” And we all know it.
Everyone knows that warm wash that comes over you that makes
you feel like you’re not enough.
We have 50 years of data that really show us, in my mind,
unquestionably that the only people who don’t experience shame
are people who don’t have a capacity for connection, people who
don’t have a capacity for empathy. So if we are capable of having
connection, we know shame because shame is the fear that we’re
not worthy of connection. And so the thing about shame that
makes it so difficult is it needs three things to thrive in our lives. If
you take a Petri dish and you put shame in a Petri dish and you
douse it with secrecy, silence and judgment, it grows
exponentially.
It will grow into every corner and crevice of our lives. If you have
the same amount of shame in a Petri dish and you douse it with
empathy, shame can’t survive empathy. Empathy is a very hostile
environment for shame. And so to understand shame, I think what
resonates mostly with people are the two kind of tapes that shame
drives.
The first is you’re not enough and you can fill in the blank. You’re
not thin enough, pretty enough, strong enough, powerful enough,
rich enough, [inaudible] enough, loved enough, awesome enough –
you’re not enough. And then if we can somehow get a handle on
that say okay, I have this big presentation and you’ve got this
shame gremlin in your ear saying, “You’re not enough, you’re not
smart enough, there are going to be like 100 MBAs in that room,